awaken

SPIRITUAL AWAKENING IS THE FIRST STEP IN DIN INTEGRAL PRACTICE

DIN INTEGRAL PRACTICE propose the first step to be Spiritual Awakening which is to be followed by Ego Integral Development,in an AQAL perspective.This view is very like the strategi proposed by the korean Zen Master Chinul, but with the necessary modifications:

1.Spiritual Awakening at the begining of the Journey either given by the Guru as a Direct Introduction of the Natural State- Reality(Dzogchen tradition and Vajrayana make use of this Initiation)

2.Integral Developmental Practice - in an AQAL perspective, based by Ken Wilber's integral psychology model(Din Integral Practice propose the development of a fraction of the possible streams; they shall be publish later)

The following discussions are taken from the On-line Conference with Ken Wilber on the theme of his latest book: " The Theory of Everything" held by Shambhala Publications, between 15-17 September 2000. Here is the entire thread posted under the original question " How can Ego exist after enlightenment?" asked by Dinu at the begining of the conference, and continued well after the end of the conference, with some of the respondents. The last word is not spoken, but in the mean time, you may find some good hints about what is to be done and how.

Good luck!

Dinu, 25-10-2000, Tromsø-Norway

How Ego can exist after enlightenment?

How can we train in an Integral Practice after enlightenment?
Who is there to be developed? To maintain Buddha mind is one thing and to work on betterment of the Ego is something else; practic, you can't Keep the Buddha mind= Empty mind functioning with the Unborn and in the same time to work at the Creation of more waves in Consciousness.
Or you make waves or you don't ?
Dinu sees the functioning with the Big mind = Buddha Mind as a tuning of a radio of consciousness to a Long Wave chanell, and the Ego as a functioning with a Short Wave chanell in consciousness.
Now, is there possible to function with the 2 chanels on the same time- yes it is! But this is just as a lucid dream, when you know that you, the little self is not too real and that's why Vimalakirti was adviceing boddhisatvas to help people as all was a dream...
This question is very important in order to see What kind of timing of an integral practice must be done, which levels of the self to be developed first.
Chinul- a Zen korean master was also promoting an integral practice, but after enlightenment; it was possible to work with the ego after enlightenment( maby he ment after having some short Satories or maby some Kenshos...)

Dinu

There are so many concepts here, that are used in so many different ways! Ego - enlightenment - we have to be clear on what we are speaking of. There may be experiences, satori, glimpses, of the Truth, but these come and go - and ego, or the mind, is still running off of old momentum and drives. Vigilance is required, always returning to the knife-edge of the present moment, present awareness. Is this a practice? Perhaps, but not in the sense of trying to get somewhere. Keeping vigil to what is always already present, and has been directly experienced as such. Kabir spent the rest of his life being true to 15 second of direct experience of That. If and when the temporary glimpses or states shift into a full realization, what then? Is the mind or ego still functioning? It may be, but if so, holds little interest, is not of much concern. It serves the purposes of Life rather than being in charge. Is vigilance necessary then? Some teachers have said, until my last breath, as long as there is human form. But my intuition is that this does not look like any form of "practice" that we know.
A.

Bankei was very clear about people of Buddha Mind and other ordinaries. For Him, a good thought was to be a God in a heaven, a bed thought was to be a devil in one of the hells, but none of these modifications of Consciousness were the empty mind, the Buddha Mind and for him the whole practice was simply to Function with the Unborn- Buddha Mind.
In the Tao tradition, Chung Tzu was mentioning the perfect mind which was like a mirror, to receive but not to hold on to anything appearing on its surface and the Taoists were coining a term named Wu-Wei, acting without acting, some kind of Reflexive acting, not instinctual but rather Supermental which was ment to ensure that not new karma was acumulating...
How TO FUNCTION WITH THE UNBORN THIS IS THE QUESTION!
And this question puts all integral practices done with any motivation in question!
Maby Ken will give us a answer to this difficult question!
How to develop psychologicaly after enlightenment?

Workin for a Spiritual Science and an Integral Practice

How can ego exist before enlightenment?

Although this is tougue in cheek, I think it is a perfect answer.

To be or not to be EGO , this is the whole question, isn't it?
But, if you say your body don't exist, a Zen master may just kick you on your mouth, in order to see if there is any reaction, BUT is you say you exist, than you may be an Eternalist and again you may be kicked by the Zen master...
So, is there an Ego to be developed or if it was none in the first place, what is there to develop?...

the right answer, from Dinu's level of Consciousness development, is :
DIN

what this means?
It means :

Din

To speculate a little bit longer, take for example the saying:

Ex nihilo= nihil
Here we may use some matematical symplification with nihil
and we have

Ex nihilo = nihil / nihil
Ex = 0

But " Ex " can't be = 0 , so it must be 0 ( but not as a value, rather as an EX )

So, the universe is Empty ( = " O " ) but on the other hand "0" is not = 0.

You understand?

With the ego is the same problem, philosophically speaking, but Dinu was asking Ken for a practical way to work with this ghostly entity that in the end it may not exist, but just now, it seems so real...
Dinu

Seems to me it is once again a question of where one stands. First rest in the enlightened or awakened state, and then ask the question! It may not have much meaning!

Of course it has meaning!
Wilber had said that you need to develop all the strems of consciousness !
The problem is that this may seems unreal if you are Enlightened; to develop something that does not exist!
Here Dinu thinks that Wilber has to elaborate more on the theory, maby it is just theory, practic it is imposible, because to work on something inexistent is a proff that you are not enlightened!

But Wilber means that you can and should develop even After Enlightenment, something in line with the Korean Zen of the Master Chinul who was proposing :
1. First enlightenment
and then
2. further development

It may seems contradictory if you are a follower of Vedanta, but the Buddhist tradition find a way out of this dilema.
Maby Wilber shall enlighten in this matter, which is very fundamental; the transpersonal psychology tends to ignore the personal levels and the aim is to dissapear in Brahman, as quickly as you reach IT !
The aim of life is not Freedom from the Ilusion?
Why shall you continue to fool yourself into a separate Ego with all the problems an Ego implies?

But the Boddhisatvas were willing to return to the Ilusion in order to help, even as in an " Ilusion " the sufering sentient beeings!

We are boddhisatvas!

Is not Ken Wilber a Boddhisatva ?

I think that your question is a VERY good one, Dinu.

How CAN ego exist after enlightenment? Several of my posts have danced around this topic. See for instance:

(my first post, where I ask about the relation of acceleration of development to karma:)
http://forums.shambhala.com/cgi-bin/w3t5/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=TOECONF&Number=1256&Search=true&Forum=All_Forums&Words=bradford_cottel&Match=Username&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=1256

(and this post, where Jack and I discuss just what Satori is, re: peak experiences, as opposed to, and alongside a gradual path:)
http://forums.shambhala.com/cgi-bin/w3t5/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=TOECONF&Number=1796&Search=true&Forum=All_Forums&Words=bradford_cottel&Match=Username&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=1519

Anyway, in addition to those posts above... I think that ego *does* exist, but one realizes it to be illusory. Ego must exist for communication (communion) and action (agency) to work in the world, however one (i.e. a Bodhisattva) isn't fooled by the appearance of their own ego.

Does that make sense?

Thanks Dinu.

Best Regards,
B.

hi
dinu - i agree your question is valid. imo - to question if the ego exists is irrelevant; of course it does or we wouldnt be talking about it - this is our context so we should keep that i mind - to suggest that ego doesnt exist ie is illusory in this context is useless i think but only in the sense of that we are interacting in a rational space so we should agree as to the metaphors and context as well as the language we use - so then to me its that this is microcosm issue of the lrger ie the LARGE picture view that the world is illusory, brahman alone is real, brahman is the world....

also - to get to this question it seems that we should firstask why we see the 'ego' as a unique 'problem' as it were in that we transcend but include previous structures all throughoutt our growth through different levels of developmenet - so why is it we see the ego question as a unique issue unto itself? it eems we should approach it frmo the perspective that we at a point in development where we are becoming increasingly developmentally self conscious and keep that in mind so we can understand better where this questin of the ego - ie that structure that we are in the very process of beginning to collectively transcend - fits in .....and if in fact the 'answer' to this question doesnt lie in how previous structures or future structures have and are and will be transcebnded and included...

A very important question. I have felt a lot of confusion in my mind over this one. I belive part of the problem, as some of the other responses to your question indicate is that the word "ego" is used to talk about a lot of things. Some of these will indeed get left behind. But on the other hand, Ego is simply a fancy latin word for "I". The real issue is "Who am 'I'?". Am I this body, these feelings, an American, human or whatever. All of these are "true but partial"

One thing I have appreciated from reading Ken's work is the insight that developing awareness, including into Non-dual is "transcend and include". It appears to me that what gets transcended is the exclusive identification with your body, feelings, thoughts, "spiritual" experiences of various sorts. What happens is an identification with the self on wider and higher level. An enlighted person still eats, sleeps, has feelings thoughts and spiritual experiences. But he/she is also aware of being the witness of all these and somehow actually realising that they are all passing phenomena.

At the same time these are also manifestations of the one ground and therefore worthy of attention. I believe that Ken's approach and that of many other very aware individuals is to be passionately concerned with the physical, emotional, mental etc well being of the planet. But not as ends in themselves, but as a reflection of the higher potentials that are in each of us and the care that this Ground has in all of us its creatures and agents/embodiments.

When I read of people advocating leaving behind "ego" they are talking about leaving behind that "optical delusion" of separation that Einstein is referring to in the quote in TOE p 136.

You might also enjoy Ken's piece on "Big Hairy Egos" which is also on this website. I just love his no-nonsense, yet very sensitive and differentiated ways of getting at these questions.

hello dinu,

what an important question! i love the responses in this thread--mark's, alexandra's, tom's--well all of them really. (and thanks richard!)

"How TO FUNCTION WITH THE UNBORN THIS IS THE QUESTION!
And this question puts all integral practices done with any motivation in question!
Maby Ken will give us a answer to this difficult question!
How to develop psychologicaly after enlightenment?"

as many repondants pointed out, whether the ego can exist after enlightenment depends on what you mean by "ego" in the first place.

and there is one of the main problems, because almost everybody uses the word "ego" in a different way! for my own take on this important topic--and on what it means to develop after enlightenment--see The Eye of Spirit, especially the last chapter. (please consult the second revised edition, which can be found in the Collected Works, volume 7).

but "how to function with the Unborn" is indeed the question. yet how simple that ultimately is, for notice:

right now, you are spontaneously and effortlessly aware of the clouds floating by in the sky, feelings floating by in the body, thoughts floating by in the mind. there is a consciousness that is already noticing all of that, and it is spontaneously and effortlessly present. all of those things--the clouds, feelings, thoughts--all drift by in your own vast consciousness, right here, right now.

but what about that consciousness itself? what color is that? where is it located? where is your mind right now? does it have a shape or size or color?

in fact, your own consciousness right now is without shape or form, but it beholds all the shapes and forms floating by. your own consciousness right now is without color, yet it beholds all the glorious colors passing by. it is without taste, yet can taste all the flavors that arise moment to moment.

your own consciousness, in other words, is without taste or color or shape or form. your own consciousness--right now at this very moment, and just as it already is--is in fact the great formless Unborn. even your own body and feelings and thoughts and mind arise in the vast openness of your own ever-present awareness, and that present awareness is none other than Spirit itself.

in short, you are aware of yourself existing now. that of which you are aware is your individual self; that which is aware of your individual self, right now, is God.

and you, as pure witness, are that God, that Goddess. you, as pure witness, are the Divine itself, right here and right now; whereas you, as an object of that Self, are the mortal, finite, limited thing you are used to calling yourself ("dinu" or "tom" or "ken" or "amy").

it is not impossible, or even hard, to rest as the great empty Witness, the great Unborn, and simultaneously exercise any object that arises in this great open awareness--such as your body, your ego, your psyche, or anything else that arises.

the integral view, then, embraces both absolute (Unborn and empty Consciousness) and relative (any and all Forms that arise in that vast infinite space that you are). may this infinite great Unborn, which you always already are, tacitly announce itself to you when you aren't looking, and slowly begin to reorganize your entire being along lines that can never be whispered....

blessings to you, dinu.

Ken

Hei Tom,
dinu thanks you for you interest in ego-less problems, and hopefully Wilber has answered satisfactory to this question; the problem of the spiritual development is to discover that you are not the ego but nevertheless you have one and as a great Tibetan master , Tsonkapa said:
The universe is unreal
but the low of karma is never failing

this can be explained by two imperatives:
1. don't think that you have an ego, because you don't have
2. don't think that you can do anything you want, because the law of karma is valable as long as you exist as Ego

theoreticaly is easy to understand , but to put these insights into practice , THIS IS DIFFICULT !

Hopefully we may find right guidance!

All the best to you!
dinu

Dear Ken,

What an inspired answer to Dinu's question, and sorry that it have taken some days before he has answered to your post, but to understand really what you mean, it have taken a while, although even now there is some comfusions concerning about the advices of different masters who :

1. *The fifth Zen Patriarch:Preserving the mind is the foremost path!

2. Ku-Shan :Refraining from conceptual thought, this is the way!

3.Right mindfullness means not having any thoughts.
Concentration means not conceiving any mental images.

4.If you keep the mind still, so that errant thoughts does not appear and this is Nirvana.

5.Buddhas, like little children, do not get involved in thoughts!

6.Sunryu Suzuki: Just sitting without being concerned with the conditions of our mind is the most important point in Zen.

7. Kalu Rinpoche: We leave the mind as it is, recognize what is going on within it and we do not interfere.

8. Dza Paltrul : It is sufficient to simply let your mind rest in a state of whatever takes place, in whatever happenses.

9.Madhyamaka Avatara: The cessation of mind is the actualization of Dharmakaya. What the cessation of mind mean? There should be an absence of conceptualization and discerning; when we abandon all conceptual activity such as accepting and rejecting, judging or evaluating, self existing awareness is naturally prezent.

These teachings are very subtle and it takes only an experimental approach to understand what really IS.

Very few traditional teachings speak about the functioning with a boddhisatva state of mind, with this double consciousness, that may be identical to an extend to the experience of lucid dreaming; yes, this is the best comparison that Dinu can think of.

But it seems obvious that the traditional schools were more concentrated on the descovery of the Buddha Mind and its maintainance on all life events, whatever how noble they might be: this was not their concern, because thoughts are good or bad, but ultimately they keep you in the conceptual world, and so you are not yeat free, being chaned with golden chaines!

Dinu considers that the first priority is to awaken to the Buddha mind, and after you have got a glimpse of it, to try to expand this fleeting experience into a continuous state, that it may come basically only with practice, as much as possible, and maby the psichological development may not speed this realization; what may, it can be the detachment, the renuntiation that is reguired by all the big schools.

To develop psichologicaly in paralell with working towards enlightenmnet, may prove deifficult, in the begining, so that it may be wise to give in the begining some priority to spiritual practice, to awaken, and then slowly and carefull to move on towards working with the other streams of the self.

At a first look, the integral practice may seem to give more priority to psichological work than to spiritual.

Shall we not listen to Master Chinul advices :
1.First get enlightened
and then
2.Work for psichological development

Many thanks for your kind and INSPIRED answer!

Sincerely ,

Dinu

You end,

Shall we not listen to Master Chinul advices :
1.First get enlightened
and then
2.Work for psichological development

As I held this idea, I noticed a profound sadness. Out of compassion for the self in my awareness, I want to do psychological work throughout. Perhaps compassion itself is an egoic phenomenon, one which will cease to motivate me after enlightenment. However logical that might sound, the less attached I am to the egoic states, the more love becomes everpresent, and a central expression of that love is compassion. First I felt that compassion for those who were so obviously causing themselves so much seemingly unneccesary pain. Then I felt an unbelivable compassion for the self I am that caused itself so much unneccesary pain. This also incresed the scope of my outer compassion and increased the peace in the experience of it.

Am I supposed to deny or disidentify with this compassion UNTIL I am enlightened, and THEN express it through psychological development? I am not sure I understand this concept. Again, when I hold it in my arms, I feel sad. I have compassion for the being who holds it and feel a movement to embrace that being with peace and love until it lets go of it and loves itself NOW.

As I write this, I notice that I experience virtually all psychological constrictions as rooted in fear, or built around a mental/emotional structure originating in fear. That fear and constriction can be released, and love naturally moves to release it, as water runs downhill. Perhaps psychological "work" should wait until after enlightenment, if work is some egoic driven project of "being good" or "being cool" (as seems common in early 21st century San Francisco). But psycholgical healing itself? I can't imagine that it would ever be proper to make that wait. That idea brings sadness.

From another perspective, I know in my own process that I am much more likely to get lost in my egoic states when they are psycholgically intense and the fear structures are most engaged. As I do continual psycholgical healing my attachement becomes less, and I am more aware of and present to love. From this perspective, an Integral practice (which, as is all practice, is about the egoic states and structures) makes simple rational sense to me. The psychological healing faciliates the spiritual awareness which faciliates the psycholgical healing, etc. This synergy, when all quandrants are involved, would seem to accelerate the ego development and understanding of SELF towards the post conventional. From there, it seems the easiest and more natural jump into the post-post-conventional.

Thoughts?

Like Michaelangelo with David, life uses adversity to chip away the stone which encases our true self.-

Dear Friends,

Dinu finally have found the question he first asked to Ken and was put by the disciples of Chinul, a Korean Zen Master:

"Question: You said that this twofold approach of sudden awakening/gradual cultivation is the trackfollowed by thousands of saints. But if awakening is really sudden awakening, what need is there for gradual cultivation? And if cultivation means gradual cultivation, how can you speak of ideas of sudden awakening?

Chinul: First let us take sudden awakening. When the ordinary man is deluded, he assumes that the four great elements are his body and the false thoughts his mind. He does not know that his own nature is the true dharma- body; he does not know that his own numinous awareness is the true Buddha. He looks for the Buddha outside his mind. While he is thus wandering aimlessly, the entrance to the road might by chance be pointed out by a wise advisor.
If in one thought he then follows back the light(of his mind to its source)and sees his own original nature, he will discover that the ground of this nature is innately free of defilement, and that himself is originally endowed with the non-outflow wisdom-nature which is not a hair's breadth different from that of all Buddhas.

Hence it is called sudden awakening.

Next, let us consider gradual cultivation. Although he has awakened to the fact that his original nature is no different from that of the Buddhas, the beginningless habit-energies are extremely difficult to remove suddenly and so he must continue to cultivate while relying on this awakening. Through this gradual permeation, his endeavours reach completion. He constantly nurtures the sacred embryo, and after a long time he becomes a saint.

Hence it is called gradual cultivation.

This process can be compared to the maturation of a child. From the day of his birth, a baby is endowed with all the sense organs just like everyone else, but its strength is not yet fully developed. It is only after many months and years that it will finally become an adult."

(From the book: " Tracing back the Radiance- Chinul's korean way of zen ( tr. Robert E. Buswell, Jr.)published by The Kuroda Institute.
Dinu thanks in advance the author and the publishers for letting this passage to be printed on the net)

So, this was the basic Question and the Answer from an enlightened Zen Master Chinul; Dinu is very pleased with the answer from Ken, and if the conference should have been a little longer, maby a longer discussion may have been around this tema.

Greetings to anyone, and hopefully you may have found a good answered from both: Master Ken and Master Chinul.

SAT NAM

Dinu

Wondering...

How can there be hunger after enlightenment?
How can there be compassion after enlightenment?
How can there be laughter after enlightment?
How can there be mountains after enlightenment?
How can there be language after enlightment?
How can there be non-duality after enlightenment?
How can there be .....?

How can we have ten toes after enlightenment?
How can we think after enlightenment?
How can we breath after enlightenment?
How can we talk after enlightenment?
How can we be enlightened after enlightenment?
How can we .....?

Regards,

Nice poems S.

But as Ken said, the enlightenment is an ongoing process that don't destroy the ego right away, and you may continue to live, even as in a lucid dream , partially identifying with a body that has limitations and needs; and here is coming in the picture the boddhisatva vow, to help all sentient beeings, even as in a dream, but nevertheless there, present in your encompasing consciousness that has spread to everything around.

Ask again Ken for a better answer, if you wish, but Dinu thinks that this is the Post Enlightenment scenario!

Good luck!

Dinu

Hei M.

Dinu finally have found the question he first asked to Ken and was put by the disciples of Chinul, a Korean Zen Master:

Hence it is called sudden awakening.

Hence it is called gradual cultivation.

Greetings to anyone, and hopefully you may have found a good answered from both: Master Ken and Master Chinul.

Mark, this is the complete answer from an authority, so if you need more guidance, read his book, or ask Ken for more advices; the point is that to get a glimpse of the Real, it may be done in a Dzogchen initiation, right from the begining, so that you know what are you looking for, but this glimpse is fading fast and you have to enrole in a regular practice, but done from this Enlightened perspective: you know what is all about, but nevertheless you are still obliged to work toward complete enlightenmnet.

ask again Ken, maby he shall answer more.

Good luck!

Dinu

Hei M.

Dinu has thought a little more about your post and here are some quick replies;

1. Sudden Enlightenmnet which Master Chinul speaks about, is just a glimse of the Absolute, a Satori . It was an a chinese Zen master who used to said that a big Satori whipes off 7% of the ignorance, and that with each succesive satori you wipe out the ignorance, until you are left with about 20% when a new Big Satori wipes out all ignorance. Even here it is the acumulation acumulation effect which is at work...

In the traditional buddhist theory the main purpose of the Spiritual practice is to wipe out the Defilements, that usually are 6, but can be many more, so that until you manage to wipe out the worst of them, namely the ignorance, it is an ongoing process of Satori flashes.

Only an Arahat, or a Saint has managed to subdue all the defilements, so that he is more perfect, on the manifested level than you, but the Buddha Mind, which you share with all , it is the same!

2. If you should be initiated in a Dzogchen tradition, or Vajrayana, from the first moment of the initiation, you are introduced to the Rigpa, or the Reality, so you know from the begining what is the Aim!

But this is just the begining, you have to work regularily to maintain the Buddha Mind, which is very much to be in psychological balance and concentrated on the practice of maintaining the Enlightened mind.

We have discussed with Ken all these things, and his answer it seems very easy to follow, BUT HERE YOU MIGHT NEED MORE QUIDANCE; the problem is that even the boddhisatvas if they give rise to a single thought, they may again be projected in confusion, loosing the Enlightened mind, which means to maintain a double consciousness, both of your Absolute nature and of your limited ego to the present form.

In the end, it may be exactly what you have said, what had said Michelangelo; but you also know that you can have a Satori even if you are at a lower developmental level, so practicaly you may be enlightened even if you are iliterate!

What is the difference it is the interpretation of the experience, and hence, the different religions at different levels, everybody speaking about the same thing, using different levels of expression.

What is after enlightenment, have been a big discussion between the traditions over many milenia, for example, the Vedanta, in Upanishads, states 5 levels of realized persons, ranged after the quality of the Samandhy, the Absolute level of absorbtion; for this tradition, the best was to dissapear in Samadhy, so that anybody could disturb you, so, that after some weeks of continuous Samadhy, the body of the Guru was berried because it was beyond being alive or death. At the first levels you could come out from Samadhy , by the egos power, than by the disciples intervention, until nobody could bring you back, simply you were dissolved in the ALL ! And this was the whole story of the ego, from its appearance, until its dissapearance.

But Buddhists, have invented another ideal, the Boddhisatva who doesn't dissapear in the Void, but maintaines a double consciousness, both as the Absolute- Buddha Mind, and of the Relative ego which must be perfected through the 10 Boddhisatvas developmental levels. Here you may see Santideva's book, on the Boddhisatvas stages!

Dinu believes that it is possible everything, but it takes much time for all this developments in all the quadrants, and given the little time on earth we have it is a priority to work at the enlightenment and in paralell, as it is possible, to work at the betterment of the ego, that Already you know that it is unreal: but not inexistent!

Maby Ken shall see this post and come with more coments...

All the best wishes,

Dinu

Thank you.

From your answers I understand what I had misunderstood.

You had orignially said:

1.First get enlightened and then
2.Work for psichological development

I see now that you use "enlightened" in a manner different than I. Perhaps it is fair to summarize your statement as
1. First have a peek experience, a glimpse of satori
2. Then work to attain it as an ongoing state, such work including psychological development.

It seems that the only psychological work that you mention is the cleansing that happens during a satori experience. This seems to me to be the precise type of thinking the Wilber in encouraging us to go beyond in our integration of east and west. Let's use the western psychological methods on the lower level ego experiences, to build up and refine the ego so that it can be transcended in satori.

In fact, I don't think it would be useful to train a schizophrenic in satori practice as they cannot contain it withing their experience. It would fracture more than integrate.

In sum, I am as yet unsure if you make a distinction between psychological and spiritual development. Do you?